People in Digital Transformation

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September 8, 2022

The Squirro Academy Podcast

Redefining AI

Hosted by Lauren Hawker Zafer

With Ema Roloff

Ema, is a widely recognized Intelligent Automation and Change Management expert. As the host of the YouTube series Digital Transformation Talks and the Co-Host of the LinkedIn Live series The Third Thursday, where she has conducted over 100 expert interviews in the space of Digital Transformation and Innovation, Ema has been recognized as a young tech leader. She is extremely passionate about motioning change around the way that the industry regards the role of the human/individual in digital transformation.

Full Transcript

There's a phrase that a lot of times people will use when they're talking about executives. And that you need to get, like stop working in your business, and start working on your business. And I think that automation when done right and transformation when done right, give all of your employees the opportunity to stop working in your business the same way that they're used to and start working on your business to kind of really move through that like innovative culture and start to offer things that are different than how we thought of work in the past.

Hi, I'm Lauren Hawker Zafer, and this is Redefining AI. Redefining AI is a podcast hosted by Squirro and the Squirro Academy. The podcast focuses on key narratives and discussions that drive digital innovation and help people understand artificial intelligence, machine learning, insight engines, and the insights EDA.

Today, I'm really happy to welcome Ema Roloff. Ema is a widely recognized intelligent automation and change management expert working with the team at Naviant. Now, Naviant provides consulting and technology solutions that help insurers navigate digital transformation. She has a vast experience in helping enterprise organizations address their top IT priorities and in developing solutions for process automation.

Now, as the host of the YouTube series Digital Transformation Talks, and the co-host of the LinkedIn Live series, the 3rd Thursday, where she has conducted over 100-expert interviews in the space of digital transformation and innovation, Ema is certainly familiar with public speaking and has been recognized as a young tech leader.

Now, she's extremely passionate about motioning change around the way that the industry regards the role of the human, the individual in digital transformation. Now, I'll be talking to Ema today about digital transformation. And in particular, the role of people in digital transformation.

But before we invite Ema into the conversation, I want to start by setting the scene a little.

Digital transformation is a journey that many companies are powering ahead with. And the dawn of the COVID-19 pandemic made digital transformation an even more pressing requirement. It is imperative that companies constantly transform and keep up with the speed of emergent technologies, a process of continuous learning, and pivoting to adapt to an evolving competitive landscape. Now, speed is critical and digital transformation takes financial investment and time. Organizations need to look at planning investments in technology, organizational capabilities, and talent.

So, in the transformation equation of heart, head, and hands: why employees do the work; how they see their work; and how they do their work; what waiting equates to success.

Welcome, Ema.

Hello, thanks for having me.

It's wonderful that you're here. And we've been wanting to invite you on to the show for a while. And it's great that we've finally been able to catch you today in this session in People in Digital Transformation.

Ema, I've been following some of your key narratives for a while now. But our audience, they may not have been. So, let's maybe start by bringing them into the loop. Who are you? And say, why are you here today to help us explore pivoting theme of People in Digital Transformation.

Well, thank you again for having me. And as you said in the introduction, my name is Ema Rohloff. I am the Director of Sales for Enterprise Solutions at my organization Naviant. And we focus on process and content and process management within an organization. And so, at our core, we are consultants that also implement technology. And the reason that I like to phrase it that way is because a large part of our approach to transformation is focused on process and people first. And enabling process and people with technology.

And so, you know, I have an education background, which I'm sure as we start going through this will kind of make its way back out again as well. But I think that education background brings me back to people continually, time and time again, which is why I have leaned into the area of people driven change so much over the years.

Okay. So, I think what would be good to maybe forefront at the beginning of the conversation is that we've titled this podcast, People in Digital Transformation. And you've just highlighted, at the very beginning as well, that you're going process and people first, then the implementation.

Now many of us, I'm sure, will ponder on the statement and question their own beliefs about both core terms and the roles in this particular discourse. Can you maybe comment on this, Ema? What are we classifying or denoting when we use these terms? People, digital transformation?

So, my definition, I'm going to start with digital transformation. Because I think that will lead nicely into again, kind of what I define as the people. But digital transformation to me is the idea of enabling an innovative culture, your customers and your employees. As well as redefined, streamline processes with technology. And the reason that I phrase it that way is that technology is obviously a core part of digital transformation. But it's to enable these other really big ideas. I think when I talk about culture, talk about employees, your customers, as well as process, those things all feed back to who I am referring to when I saw the people. And that is, your customers are people, your employees are people. When you bring in a technology solution, people are using those tools. And so, while the digital part of transformation often makes it sound like technology comes first, it's using that technology to enable those different people in the process.

So, just to maybe clarified, and people we're not only talking about those implementing the technology, but we're talking about the end customer, those that are using the technology as well.

Exactly, yeah. And that's a good point, I didn't even bring that out. But the people that are building the solution, I mean, everything is centered around people. But technology is enabling that.

Okay. And what technologies are most commonly associated then with digital transformation and being regarded as an enabler?

Oh, wow, that's a big question. Because I think everybody might answer this a little differently. I can answer it, I think kind of at a macro level in terms of where I see most of the conversations happening today, and then maybe help kind of focus into the spot that I think we both kind of fall under.

At its highest level, I think the technologies that are really enabling transformation, and most organizations are going to be, core platforms that they're using to do their business. And so, that differs depending on the industry that you're in. And that differs a little bit depending on your role within an organization. But those are going to be things like your ERP system, your CRM tool. So, again, like your enterprise resource management, I'm realizing I'm throwing out all these acronyms that drive me crazy. So, you know, your enterprise resource planning tool, or your customer relationship management tool, then when you start getting into more specific industries, there's core applications that are built for them, specifically.

And so, I work a lot in the insurance space. So, in those insurance companies, it's their core policy administration or claims management solution. That's usually where companies are going to start. It is replacing these large core applications with new versions of those tools. And then, but I think candidly, right alongside with those large transformation projects that are tied to these core platforms, automation and transformation are kind of synonymous in the way that a lot of people talk about making change. And those core platforms have lots of automation tools available within them.

And then, there's kind of the pure play automation tools that can come in to help fill gaps or also kind of build custom solutions for organizations, as they're looking at what their competitive advantages and how they can be successful moving forward. So, I think those automation tools are also a strong place. So, those are going to be things like robotic process automation, workflow tools, and then as we start to segue into the intelligent automation space with folks like you guys, looking at bringing in more artificial intelligence and all of those different subsets to make those automation tools stronger.

So, an immediate question that I probably have there is that you've mentioned the word automation quite a few times in what you've been saying. Does that not indicate-- I mean, the immediate connotation that it should alleviate pressure, enhance productive? It should encourage positive movement that people you think would welcome. Is that not the case? It is something that we might go deeper into the discussion? What is the relationship there with automation and people?

At its surface, I think you should be excited when your organization starts to bring in automation. Because just like you said, the idea is to eliminate mundane tasks or repetitive tasks that quite frankly, are the parts of our job that we don't like to do.

Taking a step back, though, when we take a look at the reception of automation, like people looking at these tools coming into their organization. There's oftentimes a lot of fear that's associated with it. Because it's the idea of, well, if you take away all of these things that keep me really, really busy with tasks day in and day out, what is my job going to look like? And am I going to still be bringing value to the organization? And the answer is, of course, you're still going to be bringing value to the organization. You're just going to be shifting what you're doing and your day is going to be less task focused or those repetitive processes are going to be removed. So, hopefully, you have more time to focus on your customers or think strategically about your business.

There's a phrase that a lot of times people will use when they're talking about executives. Stop working in your business and start working on your business. And I think that automation, when done right, and transformation, when done right, give all of your employees the opportunity to stop working in your business the same way that they're used to and start working on your business to kind of really move through that innovative culture and start to offer things that are different than how we thought of work in the past.

Yeah, I mean, I can completely agree with that. And I think that that comes from the angle that we approach it from as well, being an insight engine. And alleviate people from maybe mundane tasks and show them there is more productivity brought into what they are doing and giving them more advantage by brining out structure from the data rather than having an inaccessible manner or spread out.

Let's keep following that track and maybe explore your own virtual presence. Now, I mentioned at the start you are admirably passionate about the main question that I have here. Why are you on a journey to help demystify the world of digital transformation? It's a face that you used to introduce your purpose and services on LinkedIn. What popular belief are you trying to contradict here?

So, I think it's kind of twofold. So, one is what we've talked about already, and that the idea that technology is the most important part of transformation. I sell technology. I would love for you to come work with us and buy from us. But ultimately, there's a lot of really, really great tools on the market. And you have a lot of options to choose what's right for your organization. But regardless of what tool you're using, you're not going to be successful if you're not focused on those people that we've been talking about.

Taking kind of a half step back from that though, the the idea of demystifying and that phrasing, I like to go back to this story from a couple of years ago. Prior to COVID, I was out, and this is kind of what inspired all of the video series and the rest of it. I was out with my husband and another couple that we knew kind of high level and we were talking about what we do and that kind of thing. And they're both engineers. So, very intelligent people. We are sitting down, we're talking, and I start to share what I do for a living with them, and our friend stopped me. And he's like, "I like to think of myself as a relatively intelligent person, but I literally have no idea of what you just said in terms of what you do for a living." And so, one that was a light bulb to me that I need to explain this a little differently when I'm talking to people. But two, someone who is a high up manager in an engineering firm isn't even understanding what services we bring forward. And it's not because he is disconnected from technology or doesn't recognize these things are changing or moving around him. But I think outside of our industry, if you are not exposed to it or actively working on a project towards digital transformation, it's this really nebulous thing you've heard about and really difficult to latch onto.

And so, again, with my teaching background, I always call it my little teaching heart in the background, that was my indication of, there is an opportunity for our industry to do a better job of helping people understand what we do and the value that it brings to them.

And how did you personally then, I mean, you mentioned that you questioned maybe how you were explaining it? Have you changed how you approach or explain what you're doing dramatically?

I would say not overly dramatically. But even I did it during this conversation today. When you live and breathe in industry and work in software, or you work in any industry, there is like this ridiculously long list of acronyms and things that you just assume people know because they're in your head. And so, it's taking that step away from those acronyms and those things that we use, or the vocabulary that we use within our own industry to talk about what we do, and break it down to a really simple concepts. And talking through those simple concepts, and then getting to that complexity later after they're comfortable with the ideas.

So, you know, during my introduction when I was talking, we're a process consulting company. And we have technology that helps us along the way. And so, that's a really, really simple way of explaining what Naviant does. It doesn't necessarily give you every intricacy of what our team does. And I'm sure there's people that would be like, there's much more to share about what we do and who we are. And there is. But there's time to get to that. And you need to build a foundation of understanding before you start jumping into, here's all of the technology and the bits and bots that we can bring forward to help you do your job.

Now, I think what's interesting there as well is that if you're looking at the technology, I mean technology in its own by definition that covers such a huge variety of tools and features that can be aligned under the umbrella. And I think that digital transformation as well, I mean, it can mean anything from going paperless to maybe the application of digital technology in all aspects of human life. So, every step, looking at maybe the implementation of a certain tool, a digital tool, and technology in an organization and looking at the element of brining people as you've mentioned into the mixture or the matrix. What are you think taking into consideration when thinking about people?

I think we have a propensity when we're working on projects to lead with the technology or the tool and not necessarily have some of the conversations behind the why are we doing this? Or what will it mean for you and your individual job? When I take a look at like bringing people back into that loop, it starts at the very beginning on how you're communicating and what your change management strategy looks like as an organization. And you know, depending on the size of your organization, how many people are being touched, you may need to have people within your organization that are strictly focused on change management. Or bring in a consulting partner that is strictly focused on that.

But at its most basic level, any organization, any size, I kind of have three things that I suggest that they do. And the first is that "why". Sharing the "why" early and often so that your team can start to pull out what we call, "what is in it for me" or "what if" statement - if we want to go back to more acronyms. But for people not to have that fear that we were talking about earlier and for them to be excited to support the change, they need to understand how it's actually going to make their life easier. And your "why" can't just be we need to transform. Your "why" has to be, we recognize we need to bring in some new tools in our organization. This is what we believe this new tool is going to do for us. And then helping bridge that gap at an individual level or with teams for them to start wrapping their mind around, how is this going to help me? Because at our core, we're all like those selfish little two-year-old who want to say mine, and like take toys back. We want to understand how something's going to impact us good, bad, or indifferent. So, that we can start to build our own opinions on it.

That communication of the why needs to stay consistent throughout your entire process. And you can't only communicate when you're starting a project and then when it's wrapped up at the end. You have to help people understand where you're at, even if they're not involved day in, day out. And then, the last piece is making sure that you take the time to recognize each step of that process and celebrate wins along the way. Because transformation doesn't happen overnight. And you have to build momentum by building excitement and having support behind your project.

And so, if you can do those three things, at a bare minimum, you're going to be better off than if you accidentally forgot one of those those steps and didn't manage your change appropriately.

I mean, you've explained that so well, and almost from an extremely logical angle, that some of the audience might question, where are people failing if it seems as laid out and simple as your are highlighting? I think maybe one point that we could possibly identify is that digital transformation isn't always a short-term project. It can last depend on the implementation and what technology has been implemented. It can last for a longer time. So, is that people don't have the perseverance or is it the lack of being able to preempt the communication that is required throughout the process? Maybe you an give us a little bit of an insight as to where the pitfalls are and where people really are not getting it?

Yeah. I think, just what you said, everybody's transformation is going to look different. And every company going about this process is going to have something, you know-- What projects they take on, how they prioritize them, when they prioritize is going to look different. But where I continually see maybe trip ups or struggles with that are all kind of again tied to that idea of change management but at different levels. So, even just if you walk into a room and talk to an executive team and ask them what their digital transformation strategy looks like? I would be curious how many boardrooms you'd walk into where you wouldn't get the same definition from every leader in the organization.

And so, it starts with that vision at a high level that then informs the "why" for each one of those projects. And if your executive team isn't aligned on that vision, and where your organization is going, and how you're going to use technology to enable that strategy? How are they going to be able to go back to their individual teams and share the "why" behind their projects? And get those individual team members to then understand what's in it for them?

So, starting at that very top level-- You know, most companies probably have executives that are excited about technology or want to bring it in and they know where they want to go with it. But do you have a unified vision across the entire organization? Or is it your CFO is driving automation within your accounts payable process? And then disjointed from that, your customer success team is changing the way that you're interacting with your clients. But there isn't a cohesive strategy across the business. And those things all inform that very simple change management process.

And then, I would say, the other biggest area that I see a lot of people falling down in-- I guess it is across all three of those with challenges. But the communication side of it too, depending on the size of the organization, it can make it difficult to communication throughout an entire project. And will default to only communicating and giving status updates to the people that we think need them. And so, that would be the project team and the executive sponsor. And those things are good and not everybody needs every detail about what's going on within a project. But find some mechanism of how to keep people involved and engaged because at the end of the day, if you're changing the way you work in one department, even if it's not every day, it's going to change how they interact with other parts of the organization. And so, those are probably the two biggest thoughts is underestimating how many people a change is going to affect and not communicating appropriately because of that and lacking that cohesive vision across the organization.

And have you sort of tried and tested or found that some mechanisms work better than others? I mean, is there social mechanisms or cultural mechanisms that you can try and encourage to really identify with the communication that's been transmitted about the change?

So, I think there are, again. It's so hard, I always feel like a broken record. It depends on what the organization is and what the culture is. But every company has their forms of communication that they're already using today. There is some type of mechanism that you have that you're interacting with your team. And it's leaning into what those mechanisms already are and adding project updates or components of those projects into that communication strategy.

So, I guess an easy way to kind of talk through it is, you know, internally, we just implemented Salesforce. I am a stakeholder in the sense that I will use the tool moving forward. But I wasn't on the core project team. But there was no point where I felt like I didn't know what was going on with the project. And our team didn't invent new forms of communication to keep everybody abreast to what was going on. They used our typical checkpoints to give people updates on things.

And so, again, that looks different for everybody. But for example, we have weekly company meetings for a half an hour where if you're available, you join them, we call them our knowledge shares. Those knowledge shares on a monthly basis, and again, it wasn't constant. But on a monthly basis, the project team would give us an update on where they were at. Starting from the very beginning of, we are selecting the different vendors that are going to be a part of our evaluation, to we've decided, definitively we're moving forward with Salesforce. We ran into this challenge and so our timeline has shifted a little and you guys are going to get access to testing a week later than we initially anticipated. It wasn't this monolithic communication strategy that was drastically different than what we do with other things. But they made sure that everybody understands where we were within the process.

And then, kind of going back to that idea of celebrating along the way and those types of things as well. Essentially our employee of the month, we call it our values partner, there were multiple people that were involved in that project where they were given praise for their impact on that project. That's an email that goes out and we announce that with a few paragraphs of what that person did to deserve that designation. But again, the leaders in our company, were thinking of ways to celebrate along the way for the effort that our team was bringing forward. So that's just like a couple of examples of how they leaned into what our communication mechanisms were to continue to build excitement and keep the team connected to this core project within our organization.

Yeah, I think you've highlighted it very well. And it always leads me to think about the complexities of people as well. And anywhere there is change, there is a huge component of change management, motion, and a digital transformation, I think sometimes to a huge extent there is also a neglect to behavioral practices. So, if you look at maybe the demographics of certain employees of organizations, behavioral change happens at a very different speed for each individual depending on different demographics. Have you had experience I mean, especially if we look at the consequences of COVID-19, the pandemic. I mean, COVID-19 pushed a lot of organizations into digital transformation. And it's to be an even bigger imperative for organizations in the short-term future and long term future.

How do you think that behavioral practice are being taken into consideration when there's a sort of push into digital transformation?

I think collectively as a society, we kind of managed to change with COVID together. And if you think back to what you were seeing on social media or hearing in the media of this idea, we are all in this together. Everybody is moving through this at the same time. It's hard. Have grace when you are dealing with your coworkers or customers calling in or employees that you are interacting with. And so, there was like a certain sense of kind of change management at a global scale that happened along that journey. And there was, you know, memes of Zoom meetings and all the rest of it that just kind of collectively played into that. But over time, that starts to fall away. And it goes back to being kind of the individual organizations job to manage that change. And I've seen some people manage it really effectively and others not.

Demographic wise, I think we have a propensity to believe that older generations have a harder time with change. But I don't necessarily think it's tied to generation versus personality. Because I know some people that are younger than me that like when you come to them with a change, or try to force them out of their way, it's not going to go well. And it's more due to their personality versus their age. I have plenty of friends that fall into my age range that are very technology adverse. And have an iPhone version back and can barely send an emoji. You know, so I think we have this myth in our mind that it's older generations that struggle. And I think it comes more down to people and what is going on in their lives. And that's where it becomes really the manager's job to manage that change. And sometimes, it can become a resource issue when you are looking at managing a change because if your management team is so bogged down with doing tasks or completing activities that need to keep your business going, they do not have the mental capacity to help your team through that change.

A couple of months ago I did an interview David Luce, and he has a behavioral psychology PhD. And he works with companies moving through change management. And one of the things that he said that is kind of locked into my brain when I'm thinking about change management, is that your brain can only take so much. And that comes down to change as well. So, when you have personal changes going on in your life, as well as things coming at you from work, and all of these different capacities, eventually your brain is going to kind of go into self-preservation mode and like stop you or not adopt changes or you're going to lash out and be resistant or frustrated. And so, that is where it comes down to, again, the managers having the resources available to them to focus on helping their team make that transformation. And having the individual conversations that need to take place.

There's a leader that I work with, who has a lot of change coming at her team, and she'll talk about it. She'll say, you know, bear with me, I need to have some individual conversations with these folks because we are throwing a lot at them. It's a simple thing. But she has the individual conversations and that helps her team move through it. And figure out where to meet them along the way.

So, it is almost in alignment with not coaching to coach, not coaching to necessarily to develop digital skills or digital maturity. But coaching for courage, like you are giving the people the courage to take part in this change, follow the change, and develop with the change. I would certainly agree with that. There is a lot of literature at the moment that is actually emphasizing the necessity for leaders to lead through change with courage and empathy, rather than a focus on scaling and upscaling. I'm not disputing that it's important because I think that maybe we can go on to talk about this.

If we stay and focus on the human, I mean, technology is always about doing more with less. Yet, the combination is effective only if you pair technology with the right human skills. If we can leverage human adaptability to sort of rescale and upscale, then we can simultaneous really augment humans and technology. I mean, that's one of the things that we encourage and strive for with the application and the implementation of the insight engine. We are augmenting human capability.

In short, innovation is irrelevant if we are not skilled enough to use it. And even the most impression human minds will become less useful if they don't sort of team up with tech. What evidence would you for front there that aligns with leveraging as well, this human adaptability?

So, first, I would like to say the idea of augmenting, I think is really what people need to focus on. And especially when we start looking at adoption of tools and how you speak about it within your organization. It needs to be a message of augmentation. And as silly as it is in my brain whenever I talk about the word augmentation for automation, it's like a little robot with a human, holding hands.

If we look at how do we get people to look at these tools as an extension of what they are doing, it's just as simple as giving you 500-pages of information and asked you to go through and highlight five words. And on the flip side, I sat down at my computer and used some tools that had natural language processing and machine learning capabilities to kind of beef up an optical character recognition tool, that recognition is going to go through that document, recognize context cues from that natural language processing, and learn how to get more effective with that machine learning every time. And it's going to pull back those terms way quicker than human could. Because we're leaning into that technology. And so, if you look at like ability to produce just even in that one scenario, it might take that human, even if they're really quick in skimming the document, just even going through 50 pages to highlight five words. Let's be generous and say it takes them five minutes. Well, how quickly can that happen when your tool has been able to learn from thousands of samples and knows just what context cues to look for and pulls back that unstructured information and make it useable. Well, suddenly, that person with those tools at their disposal is able to take that data and do something with it and drive a process forward without that five minutes doing that work on the front end.

And if you have to move through that process hundreds of times in a day, just at a base level, how much productivity are you gathering from using those tools? You know, to what you were saying, it doesn't matter how smart the person is that you drop those 500-pages in front of, they are just automatically at a disadvantage when they are not using technology to enable their processes.

And so, then on that flip side, when you've got that really smart person that's being fed the data that's going to drive their process, then they can use that data to inform decisions, and make decisions at a much quicker clip and offer more value to the organization because they're going to get through more in less time.

Very much so. I think that also pairs up with the concept of the data informed culture? Is that what you mean by that?


Yeah, which is also important. It's a fascinating topic, and I could talk about it for much longer. Not that I want to close yet, I think that before we close it would be great to hear you tell a little story, maybe a favorite story that you have from your experience over the last few years or something that you would like to share in parting with us.

Well, I think going back to the idea of how do you effectively do this, you know, I shared a little bit of our Salesforce story. But I have one customer who I look to in my mind as like the ideal for change management every time I start thinking through, you know, when I was distilling down to those three steps and what that looks like. And they were managing a huge transformation. So, going back to kind of what we talked about, they had a core application replacement, they were bringing in process automation tools to kind of augment that, as well as a number of other kinds of tools to completely change the way that they're doing their business. And they opted to do it all at once, with kind of what I call a big bang approach. And they did that by going into, so it was an insurer, going into new states. And so, they were taking a greenfield approach, where they were going to implement all of these tools while they were going into this new state. And then slowly over time, start to bring the rest of their business in after they had kind of tested the waters in this brand-new greenfield environment.

That's a huge undertaking. And there's so many components that go along with it along the way. But the piece that impressed me the most, I mean, they were wonderful with their Agile methodology. They took some of their teams explicitly out of the day-to-day business to make them tied to this initiative so that it was successful. So, going back to resources and that type of thing. They did those pieces right. But starting the project, they had almost like a party for everyone in the company along with all of the vendors that were going to be associated with this project where they shared that "why" and they helped people understand what was going to be happening, get them excited for the change. And going back to the communicating throughout. They had, and I don't know exactly off the top of my head what the cadence was, but I think it was every two weeks because they were an Agile organization. So, they had two-week sprints. They would just have a lunch and learn, where people who are curious about what was going on, and wanted demos of where the solution was at, could come and join in one of those demos and see what was happening. And engage with these new platforms that were going to be a part of their day-to-day life.

And so, again, kind of going back to the why, and the celebration and the communication. They kept that communication along with all of our standard tools and status reports and all the rest of it. But they made it really easy for their team to get invested and excited in the project.

And then on the tail end, it probably would have had a party again. But we were in the midst of COVID when they went live, like within the first couple of weeks COVID. So, it was a little hard to kind of have the same type of celebration. But you better believe everybody in that organization was hearing and recognizing and celebrating that they had made it through this really large feat.

And so, when I look at an organization that's doing it right, and getting the kind of ideal in mind, that's always the story that I go back to.

Yeah, I mean, it sounds interesting. And I think it's that accessibility that you've highlighted, I mean, obviously creating the accessibility at the start with an emotional event, I mean, a party always scores, an emotional attachment. It's something memorable. It's something that people can get excited about in advance. And maybe building up that organic enthusiasm with continued communication, opening an open learning environment. Again, continuing that accessible, integration, encouragement to be part of the change. And I think that that's something that you're trying to emphasis and that you have been emphasizing very well throughout the conversation. It is really bringing people into living and breathing the change. Because people are emotionally driven creatures that want to be part and understand why is this happening? How does it benefit me? I think it goes back to how I introduced you in the start as well, love. It's about hearts. It's about heads. It's about hands. And that is essentially representative of the human and the human body.

So, I mean, it is fascinating, and I think people will be able to identify and maybe take some inspiration from that story. Thank you, Ema.

Thank you for having me. I could talk about change management, digital transformation all day. So, I'm glad to be here.

So, I want to take this opportunity to thank you again for sharing such valuable experience and I want to thank everyone for listening today.

So, if you'd like to find out more about Squirro and the insight engine, go to the Squirro Academy on and access our education material.

Thank you, Ema.

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